The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion

Good afternoon, everyone.

There are few topics more radioactive than abortion.  There are folks on either extreme that simply can not and will not abide by any sort of compromise.  I can certainly respect deeply held morals.  If someone considers abortion murder then I can see why it would be a hot-button issue.  If someone considers the right of the prospective mother to decide whether or not to bring the child to term is a sacred and unassailable right, then I can understand why some might see any restriction as the thin end of the wedge.

I can understand these points of view, and I can respect them.  However, these extremes are if not actually wrong, certainly unhelpful in resolving this matter.  The current regime of Roe v. Wade (as heavily modified by Casey v. Planned Parenthood) is unsustainable.  It is not the place of the judiciary to decide broad issues of policy as I see it.  Moreover, such a regime lasts as long as there is a majority of Supreme Court justices whom support it.  That may be more durable than a legislative regime, but it is far less reflective of the views of the electorate.

I have some thoughts on what may prove a workable legislative solution.  It would make neither extreme happy, but I think it would accomodate everyone as well as anything possibly can.  And I think reading Casey would be a great primer!

Read on?

Pro-Lifers focus on how regrettable (if not actually evil) each abortion (or unnecessary abortion, depending on the individual's views) is.  Pro-Choicers focus on the inviolable right of a woman to decide her reproductive future.  The only way rational people can even begin this conversation we must agree that there is some significant value to each of these concerns.

I don't know a single pro-Choicer who rejoices at an abortion.  I don't know very many pro-Lifers who are completely oblivious to the fact that much of history is littered with stories of women who could not much control whether or not they had children.  The question of agency becomes even more deplorable when one considers that women have historically had less choice in whether or not they would initiate the sex act.  We've come a long way on the issue of consentual sex, but we have hurdles left to jump and miles left to run.  Most conservatives I know are at least somewhat considerate of these facts.

The first cleavage is the value each camp assigns to each problem.  Which is worse?  The death of the unborn or the sexual straightjacketing of women?  I find both to be deplorable and truly tragic.  Is there some way to avoid both, inasmuch as possible?  Yes, yes there is.  Both sides have to compromise for that to happen.

Bill Clinton nailed it when he said that he wished abortion were "safe, legal, and rare."  That's it exactly.  Women should have the right to make the choice, but we as a society should make the need or want for it to be as rare as we can be by defeating the causes.

Here is what I think a fair compromise would look like:

1) Functional sex education.  Parents can and should teach morality to their children, and sexuality is a large component of that lesson.  The state should not seek to teach whether or not sex under any set of circumstances is "right" or moral.  As a prospective parent I would not want a high school or middle school teacher telling my kids whether or not they should be having sex.  That's my job.  However, we as a society have a phenomenally strong interest in having all of our children knowing the mechanics, consequences, and issues of health that go along with sex.  The people I've known who've ducked that as kids turned out in a variety of odd ways.  Some took risks they never would have, had they been given a good education on the health of sex.

2) Adoption should be encouraged!  We use the tax code in all manner of ways to drive public behavior.  This should be encouraged greatly.  Tax credits may not be free, but neither is the foster-care system nor really any other step along the way the state rears its wards.  I think we can incentivize adoption in a way that winds up costing less than what we're doing now.  The process is overcomplicated and costly.

3) Gay adoption needs to happen, and the religious right needs to chill out!  Fine, they think it's a really big risk.  Whatever.  They're entitled to believe that, but if they really sat down and thought about it, ending the abortion debate has to be more important to them than this issue.  Homosexuals are the group most likely to want to adopt.  It's complete lunacy to exclude them, or to even suggest it.

4) We need to make contraceptives more available, and doubly-so for Plan B (and other forms of the morning after pill).  Having had to avail myself of this option in the past, I can assure you that they could make it a tad easier to get.  I don't want to hear about pharmacists refusing to sell it, either.  That's bogus and idiotic.  The folks who don't want to sell it are almost certain to be opposed to abortion.  

5) Along with #4, we need to educate the public.  The morning after pill generally does not abort a pregnancy - it prevents one.  This misconception is driving religious opposition to it, I'm sure.

6) Pro-choicers should probably come to terms with the Casey v. Planned Parenthood decision, because its reasoning will almost certainly inform any legislative regime.  Even if we stay within the judicial one we currently enjoy, that already is the governing precedent, and whatever follows will stem from Casey.  There are several salient points to Casey, and I'll go into them presently.

Women have a right to decide whether or not to have a child.  I cherish that right.  As a man I am extremely uneasy even discussing this topic.  However, I don't give up my right to speak, to reason, or to vote because I have a penis.  What I am trying to accomplish here is to reason a way to protect a woman's right to choose whilst still accomodating other valid concerns in the electorate.  Non-polygamists can vote on polygamy.  People who don't smoke marijuana can vote on drug issues.  The blind can speak out on road signs and god knows what else.  American democracy accepts the voices of all citizens, not just those who are affected by the law.  You need to accept that.  You offend and drive off allies when some of you insist we either can't have an opinion or we should keep it to ourselves.  If pro-choice men are silent then the only men speaking are the pro-Lifers, and I cannot imagine that pro-Choice women think that's a helpful state.

While a woman has the right to choose whether or not to have a child, the Casey decision weighs that right against another interest.  The State has an interest in protecting the lives of its citizens.  Per Casey, the unborn becomes a person that the State has an interest in protecting at some point during the pregnancy.  Casey defined the threshhold as when the child becomes viable.  At viability the fetus/unborn child/child (whatever you wish) could survive on its own, though often with initial assistance.

This is a good place to draw the line for two reasons.  First, we can all agree that a child is fundamentally human an hour prior to birth.  If we accept that, then we have agreed that human life does not begin at birth but at some point prior to that.  If we agree to that, then the question becomes: when does human life begin?  That is as much a philosophical question as it is a medical one.  However, as a question of policy we need some kind of answer and Casey gives us one.  Human life may begin at whatever point it begins, but the State has a vested interest in protecting the lives of its citizens.  At viability we have someone who could survive on his/her own.  I think that's a very reasonable bright line rule.

It's also a bit nuanced.  Viability varies from individual to individual, but also as medical science improves and learns we have been able to shorten the amount of time it takes to reach viability.  Per Casey, viability occurs somewhere around 22 or 23 weeks into the pregnancy.  That's five to five and a half months.

So lets bring it home.  I believe in a woman's right to choose as much as I believe in any other fundamental right we Americans possess.  The idea that any man or woman could force a woman to bear a child she does not want is abhorrent to me.  It is a form of bondage.  However, if the woman voluntarily consented to the act that lead to her pregnancy (thus excluding rape, statutory rape, and so on) then I believe that the Casey rule is absolutely fair.  22 or 23 weeks is more than enough time for any sane person to know if she is pregnant and to reflect on that situation at length.  I don't know that I can countenance an abortion morally if it occurs after viability, unless that abortion is needed to guarantee the safety of the mother (or the usual rape, incest, etc exclusions apply).  At that point you've very nearly got a person.

Now I understand that many people will understandibly reply that this is a woman's right and should not be regulated or infringed by men or the State.  All well and good, but there simply is no right that you or I or anyone possesses that cannot be regulated by the State, or infringed under certain circumstances.  Our Constitution provides for our rights, both enumerated and unenumerated.  We can speak, though we cannot do so without thought to consequences.  We can keep and bear arms, though we cannot do so without reasonable regulations.  We have the right to life, though we can forfeit it.  We have the right to liberty, though we can forfeit that as well.

Your individual rights exist up until the point that society decides they don't.  The majority is wrong at times.  The Constitution attempts to allow the majority its due whilst still protecting the rights of the honest minority.  I think the Casey rule, whether it continue on in a judicial regime or be substantively enacted in a legislative regime, is the fairest and sanest way.

If a woman were to decide, under this regime, after 23 weeks that she (being healthy, both physically and mentally) did not want the child, the State would not permit an abortion but would facilitate an adoption.  I am not blind at all to the restriction on the freedom of the mother under these circumstances.  However, if we do our damnedest to educate our young and give them the tools they need and more than enough time to make educated decisions, I think we can avoid this sad state from happening very often indeed.

Remember this - in this hypothetical we have a woman who consented to sex and waited until after she was carrying a viable child.  Is that really something our society wants to allow and protect?  I don't see any easy answers to these questions, but I've tried to lay out a way to satisfy the core concerns of everyone.  Inevitably I will have offended nearly everyone.

I would like to stress that what I have suggested would be incredibly hard to enact, as there are aspects of this that neither side will like.  I have tried to envision a system that preserves life and a woman's right to decide whether or not to create it.  What I have suggested is essentially what the Supreme Court has already decided.

Critique what I have written, but I ask that you folks avoid personal attacks here.  I am neither God nor a dictator.  I am simply giving my thoughts and trying to foster an honest and constructive debate.  I can be persuaded by force of cogent arguments.  I hope that you will approach this in the same way.

Thank you.



Display:


Tips? (1.88 / 9)

For trying to think up a sane system?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:46:24 PM EST

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Xov Wonk, would you please explain to me how my Tip Jar was a troll?  Failing that, please explain how this diary was a troll.  If you can do neither I will report you to the moderators for ratings abuse.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Explained below. Reproductive rights for women are NON-NEGOTIABLE.


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 2)

Nothing is so non-negotiable we cannot talk about it or disagree amicably.

I will report you.  Thank you for your "reply."  I didn't know that disagreement was trolling.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Be my guest. What part of "Reproductive rights for women are NON-NEGOTIABLE" don't you understand?


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Other non-negotiable rights: (2.00 / 1)

The right to smoke tobacco (once you reach age eighteen)...
The right to become a Scientologist...
The right to cheat on one's spouse...
The right to drink one's (over 21) self into a stupor...
The right to speak hatefully about homosexuals, women, and minorities...

People are fully within their rights to do all of these things.  That doesn't mean that these behaviors should be encouraged, or that it is somehow an abrogation of these rights to encourage people not to engage in them.

Same goes for abortion.  Sure, you can have one if you want one--it's your right.  But just because you can doesn't mean that you should.  There is nothing wrong with treating abortion like the other rights I listed, and undertaking a campaign to persuade people not to do it by offering alternatives and counseling.

What part of that don't you understand?


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

That doesn't make this a troll diary.  Your disagreeing with the opinion of the diarist does not make him/her a troll.

Remove your troll-rating.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

I am neither God nor a dictator.

Really? Then why is it OK for YOU to decide what's morally right or wrong in a particular set of circumstances? The decision is between a woman and her doctor. PERIOD.


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:30:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Progressive Democrats are PRO-CHOICE -- despite a "presumptious nominee" who runs for cover and votes "present" on critical abortion issues.


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

I did no such thing.  I laid out some suggestions and my thoughts.

Are you a child?  Are you mentally deficient?  I ask this because you respond to reasonable points in an unreasonable fashion, then ignore any substantive reply you might get.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (1.00 / 2)

You did exactly "such thing." You're substituting your judgment in a private, personal situation to usurp the judgment of a woman and her doctor. Remind yourself again: YOU are NOT God.

we have a woman who consented to sex and waited until after she was carrying a viable child.  Is that really something our society wants to allow and protect?


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rubbish. (none / 0)

He's presented a cautious opinion - one that he's very clearly presented as no more than that.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

Mojo for the guts to talk about this, and additional phantom mojo for the abusive troll rating.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Courageous diary (2.00 / 2)

...though expect mostly flames. You could post this anywhere from Redstate to Kos and get mostly negative reactions, because for many people the issue has moved past reason and into fear.

Like so many other issues, people are so afraid of "legislative creep" that they feel the extreme positions are the only positions. There is a reasonable point in the middle, as there is with most issues which have legitimate arguments on both sides. It will, of course always be a struggle to hold that middle once it is established, but that does not mean that we shouldn't pursue that position.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:03:06 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

I don't see any need to get into your first five points. But I am confused as to why you think your sixth point is different from the Roe / Doe regime?

A woman may not have an abortion on demand past fetal viability, according to Roe. Once past fetal viability a woman may only choose an abortion if a doctor agrees it is medically necessary.

You attempt to argue that because the state has an interest it may regulate, but that is a very dangerous path for all sorts of reasons unrelated to abortion. In what other case do we permit the state to override a doctor's judgment, with the patient's  informed consent, of what is medically necessary?


by souvarine on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:20:00 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

We don't.  If the doc says it's medically necessary then it is medically necessary.  I'm addressing those abortions that are not medically necessary.

Some folks on the pro-choice side assert that any restriction on the ability to choose is unacceptable.  I find that to be an untenable position.  That said, I am less seeking to rebuke any particular group than I am trying to lay out what I think a fair system would look like.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not saying it never happens,... (none / 0)

but I've never actually seen anyone put forth this argument. Some folks on the pro-choice side assert that any restriction on the ability to choose is unacceptable.


by tonedevil on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have. (none / 0)

I've read plenty along the lines of abortions needing to be retailed like hotdogs.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've not seen that attitude... (none / 0)

I think abortion should be treated like kidney transplants.  Or, any other medical procedure really, something private between a patient and their physician.  


by tonedevil on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (2.00 / 2)

Elective abortions past the point of viability have never been legal in the United States. I take it then that you have no issue with the Roe / Doe regime. There may be groups that believe elective abortions should always be legal, but none of the major groups (Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW) do.

The argument is whether the government may interfere with the decision of a woman and her doctor. The position of the pro-choice groups is that the government should not intrude into a doctor's professional decision making regarding a woman's choice, as was laid out by Doe.


by souvarine on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

The concern (which is not entirely my own) is that overly-broad exceptions to legislation for the "health of the mother" can lead to a catch-all for basically any justification one might have.  This dovetails with the debate around Obama's remarks, I think.

Again, I wasn't so much suggesting a radical new regime.  I was rather fleshing it out, I thought.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (2.00 / 1)

Exactly, that is the crux of the difference between the pro-life and pro-choice positions right now. Warmwaterpenguin outlines concerns along that line in the comment below.

Hillary Clinton articulated the pro-choice position pretty well at the compassion forum:

But for me, it is also not only about a potential life; it is about the other lives involved. And, therefore, I have concluded, after great, you know, concern and searching my own mind and heart over many years, that our task should be in this pluralistic, diverse life of ours in this nation that individuals must be entrusted to make this profound decision, because the alternative would be such an intrusion of government authority that it would be very difficult to sustain in our kind of open society.

As I suggested above our government rightly avoids regulating medical decision making. The question of whether to have a late-term abortion is so morally, emotionally and medically complicated that the government could only do damage by interfering. The Supreme Court was right to decide that it was too great in impingement on our liberty, given the interests at stake.


by souvarine on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)


There may be groups that believe elective abortions should always be legal, but none of the major groups (Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW) do.

Could you provide references that would clarify the above position you claim for these groups? I'm not questioning the accuracy of your claim, just genuinely interested in how these positions are spelt out.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (2.00 / 1)

NARAL fights for safe, legal abortion, in other words the right to chose as protected by Roe and Doe.

Planned Parenthood defends women's "right to seek and obtain safe, legal abortion services without interference from the government." Where legal abortion is defined by Roe and Doe.

"NOW fully supports access to safe and legal abortion", again where "legal abortion" is defined by Roe and Doe.


by souvarine on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 10:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

I see. Thanks.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 10:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just state interest... (none / 0)

It's state-involvement on behalf of another individual, the balancing of multiple people's rights against eachother, the right of the mother to liberty against the right of the fetus to life, just as my right to pursue happiness must be balanced against your own.

That said, I'm not sure that I disagree with your concerns; I'm simply saying that one needn't always reject state involvement for fear that the state may want to involve itself more later. Fight that battle when you get there. It's the same idea as maintaining a generally free market but allowing intervention where prudent, such as trust-busting.

I know that such a valuable right as reproductive choice is something to be defended passionately, but tempering that right in prudent ways is, in my opinion, a method for defending its most vital aspects. Taking early-term abortion, contraceptives (including the morning after pill), late abortion in cases of rape incest etc, mercy abortions, and abortions for reasons of physical and mental health out of the line of fire while encouraging better access to information, care, and said preventive measures should be the main goals. If those goals are furthered by this very reasonable concession, if the more reasonable opponents of abortion can have their passion defused and the less reasonable can be marginalized for the extremists they are, I consider that a worthwhile pursuit indeed.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (2.00 / 2)

I would also add - take away the stigma of being a single mother.  

Too many times in our culture, we demonize single mums while wringing our hands over abortion.  

We should also support mothers, not only in the pregnancy phase, but after giving birth.  Way too many moms get lost after that - it seems that we only care about what it is their wombs but don't give a rip about the child after it is born, nor its mother.  


by colebiancardi on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:30:24 PM EST

Yes (none / 0)

In fact, fuck yes.

Functional families come in all shapes and sizes. The single mother is to be praised, not condemned.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  We often fail, as a society, to help those who decide to have the child despite the fact that such a choice is often fraught with difficulties so hard to see before birth.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:38:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

It's also one of the most straw arguments since neither party has any real interest in changing the status quo. It's value to them as an issue to stir up the most devoted on either side of the argument would be lost if they ever got what they want.

From 2004-2006 the GOP controlled every branch of government with a large number of DCDemocrats more than willing to be complicit-- and did they deliver the abortion ban they've been promising for decades? Of course not. In fact, they delivered on NOTHING in their platform.

In the case of Obama at this time, abortion is just being used by zealots, bitter clintonites, and GOP opportunists to try to make trouble for him. And it's a relatively small gaggle. The overwhelming mass of people don't get bent over one or two words that must be parsed to death in order to connote anything wrong.


by Beren on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 07:38:33 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

Spotlighting the differences between the Republican and Democratic Parties' stance on Abortion Policy is a brilliant move. We ought to do that every chance we get.

How do YOU spell Landslide?


by QTG on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:26:46 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (2.00 / 2)

It's worked well for Rethugs the last 8 years.


by Xov Wonk on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:40:12 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

Precisely the point.
 It's radioactive.
   Leave it alone.
by QTG on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 08:41:58 PM EST

As with all things radioactive... (2.00 / 1)

the longer you let it sit around without neutralizing it, the more long term damage it does.

"Leave it alone" is lousy advice.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kudos. (none / 0)

You've brought up a topic that, radioactive or not, needs to be discussed. Here's hoping your diary will generate more light than heat.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:33:03 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

While adoption would be encouraged in your scenario; who would ensure that ALL babies put up for adoption would end up in homes that WANT them, and not languishing in the foster care system?

Another problem: most states have moved away from "closed" adoption. A mechanism should be put in place where women putting children up for adoption should be able to do so anonymously, or under a pseudonym. Some entity also would need to be responsible for all medical costs associated with prenatal care and the actual birth.

Just some potential problems that popped into my head...


by Lacy Davenport on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 10:45:50 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

While adoption would be encouraged in your scenario; who would ensure that ALL babies put up for adoption would end up in homes that WANT them, and not languishing in the foster care system?

While I doubt perfection is easily achievable, is this really a problem we have now?  Of course there are kids without permanent homes, but I wasn't under the impression that a large portion of those were babies, but older children.  The amount of time that people have to wait to adopt always suggested, to me, that there weren't a lot of babies going uncared for.

Some entity also would need to be responsible for all medical costs associated with prenatal care and the actual birth.

I would think that the mother, father, and their insurance companies would be appropriate, though I'd welcome any contributions from potential adopting parents.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

Part of the furor over this issue is caused by mistaken beliefs. Many in the pro-life camp think late term and partial birth abortions are happening every day when it's simply not true. That fuels the outrage on that side.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 11:24:08 PM EST

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

The pro-life strategy is a bit more sophisticated than that. They target procedures and abortions that rarely happen in an attempt to set down some precedents permitting the state to regulate abortion. Once they have established the ability of the state to regulate abortion then they can expand that regulation until abortion is only notionally a right.


by souvarine on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Radioactive of Topics - Abortion (none / 0)

I wasn't talking about those who set the strategy in the anti-abortion camp. I was talking about the average person who is anti-abortion.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:21:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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